Lowering the barrier to entry for FVWM newcomers

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Postby chesss » Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:29 am

Staying to the original topic: My suggestions:

alt+tab -: Installed fvwm, reading fvwm beginner guide in my browser, starts fvwm, looks around, presses alt+Tab to go back to brower for furthur rea.. Uh no alt+tab???

IMHo Something bsic as Alt+tab must be in the default config. I mean clearly its impossible for ppl to use fvwm without basic window switching.

nad it wasn't easy figuring out also, took me hours before I cld get alt+tab working.. and that too isn't perfect.

Clickto raise: You ppl must have your reasons for not having this, but to me it seems that this definitely should be the default behaviour, specially when alt+tab isn't there.
Just think about it from the point of view of somene completely unfamiliar with FVWM , how do you expect them to switch windows without alt+tab or click to raise?? The only way left is to resize a window, click the title of the window needed to be raised. To switch again, resize this window click title bar of the first window. how can this be default!!

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Postby theBlackDragon » Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:37 pm

chesss wrote:Staying to the original topic: My suggestions:

alt+tab -: Installed fvwm, reading fvwm beginner guide in my browser, starts fvwm, looks around, presses alt+Tab to go back to brower for furthur rea.. Uh no alt+tab???

IMHo Something bsic as Alt+tab must be in the default config. I mean clearly its impossible for ppl to use fvwm without basic window switching.

nad it wasn't easy figuring out also, took me hours before I cld get alt+tab working.. and that too isn't perfect.

Iirc Alt-Tab pops up the WindowList by default, which should be pretty straightforward to use.

chesss wrote:Clickto raise: You ppl must have your reasons for not having this, but to me it seems that this definitely should be the default behaviour, specially when alt+tab isn't there.
Just think about it from the point of view of somene completely unfamiliar with FVWM , how do you expect them to switch windows without alt+tab or click to raise?? The only way left is to resize a window, click the title of the window needed to be raised. To switch again, resize this window click title bar of the first window. how can this be default!!


Personally I find having to click on a window to focus it simply horrible. The fact that most people find this 'natural' is only because Windows (and the Windows emulating defaults of KDE and, to a lesser extent, GNOME) use this. Clicking on the titlebar seems like a pretty decent way to raise windows, if you set

Code: Select all

Style * ClickToFocusRaises
windows will also get raised when you click somewhere in them, if this isn't the default then I agree with you that this should be the case. I am against making ClickToFocus the default though as the only reason to do this would be Windows users' familiarity with this way of focusing windows.

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Postby thomasadam » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:30 am

chesss wrote:alt+tab -: Installed fvwm, reading fvwm beginner guide in my browser, starts fvwm, looks around, presses alt+Tab to go back to brower for furthur rea.. Uh no alt+tab???


You're under the impression that there's some predefined behaviour. Cool. When Nick and I designed this, we were opting for something that couldn't possibly please everyone, so we didn't even try.

chesss wrote:IMHo Something bsic as Alt+tab must be in the default config. I mean clearly its impossible for ppl to use fvwm without basic window switching.


It *is* in the "default" configuration.

chesss wrote:nad it wasn't easy figuring out also, took me hours before I cld get alt+tab working.. and that too isn't perfect.


It has been a bone of contention with people for years -- there's lots of alternatives though:

FvwmIconMan
FvwmWinList
WindowList
FvwmWindowMenu

[..snip..]

-- Thomas Adam

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Postby thomasadam » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:50 am

chesss wrote:Clickto raise: You ppl must have your reasons for not having this, but to me it seems that this definitely should be the default behaviour, specially when alt+tab isn't there.


Us "ppl" can't please everyone -- welcome to the world of free-choice, subjecticism, and sweetness of light -- where everything can be fluffy, with fairy cakes too, if you want.

chesss wrote:Just think about it from the point of view of somene completely unfamiliar with FVWM , how do you expect them to switch windows without alt+tab or click to raise?? The only way left is to resize a window, click the title of the window needed to be raised. To switch again, resize this window click title bar of the first window. how can this be default!!


See above. Look at FvwmAuto in using SloppyFocus. You might like it. Did you read this thread? I doubt it -- there's about ten pages on the subject of subjectivity, along with a pertty good rationale as to why Nick and I chose what we did. The entire point of this exercise was to make it such that you as a user could do what you wanted and to change those parts you didn't.

I'm not going to say another word on this.

-- Thomas Adam

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Postby chesss » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:19 am

It *is* in the "default" configuration.

It is *not* in mine.. ubuntu here. Maybe it is different for different distros or maybe coz I am using version 2.5.14. Was it changed in the latter versions?

Personally I find having to click on a window to focus it simply horrible

Click to focus?? where did that come from?? read my post again plz
Clickto raise:


windows will also get raised when you click somewhere in them, if this isn't the default then I agree with you that this should be the case
well then you do agree with all I am suggesting. Thanks :D

Us "ppl" can't please everyone
type this in google "define:suggestion"

See above. Look at FvwmAuto in using SloppyFocus. You might like it. Did you read this thread? I doubt it
Sloppyfocus?? Did *YOU* read my post?? ofcourse not! I clearly stated clicktoraise!!!

The entire point of this exercise was to make it such that you as a user could do what you wanted and to change those parts you didn't.
I am only suggesting a default config, how will that change what the user can do with his config?

Instead of writing a nice flamy attack I'll give u a bit of advice man..

RELAX!!! you get worked up too often.. maybe something's up in your offline life, that's spilling here.. which happens to all of us.
The world doesn't hate fvwm, you don't have to defend it every time, specially when no one is attacking it. So just calm yourself.. go out more often.... just a bit of friendly advice :)

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Postby chesss » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:38 pm

welcome to the world of free-choice, subjecticism, and sweetness of light -- where everything can be fluffy, with fairy cakes too, if you want.
Thought you should know this but I have been using linux exclusively for the past six months, so there is no need for such comments. Secondly a default config of a window manager has got nothing do with the freedom that linux gives.
Like i said stop ttreating linux as a religion.

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Postby nix_newb » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:36 pm

chesss wrote:no alt+tab???

Check to make sure your Numlock isn't on. I think that probably messes up even the alt tab and there's an FAQ around here somewhere that talks about the Numlock. If you're using gdm (ubuntu defaults to it), I think that turns on numlock, but I'm not sure on this. It could even be something else in the boot-up process...

chess wrote:Clickto raise: You ppl must have your reasons for not having this, but to me it seems that this definitely should be the default behaviour, specially when alt+tab isn't there.

This was already addressed; The style line suggested by theBlackDragon should do what you want. Or were you suggesting it be in the default configuration? This goes back to what the others were getting at about personal choice and not being able to get a perfect default setting that pleases all people, all the time. I don't like clicking for focus or having what's in focus raised, so if this were the default, it wouldn't please me.

chess wrote:stop ttreating linux as a religion

The problem with text is that it's easy to misinterpret the intent behind a posting. Try not to take offense at what people type, they may not have intended for such an interpretation.

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Postby chesss » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:03 pm

Or were you suggesting it be in the default configuration?
No i was saying that everyone should be forced to use this :p .Isn't it obvious that it was a suggestion for default config, what else could it be?? besides, I quote myself:
Clickto raise: You ppl must have your reasons for not having this, but to me it seems that this definitely should be the default behaviour
8)

This goes back to what the others were getting at about personal choice and not being able to get a perfect default setting that pleases all people, all the time.
Is it possible that there is a config that pleases everyone, all the time? Did I suggest that what I say has to be right ??
Then what is the point for telling me that there cannot be a config that pleases everyone?

REMINDER:The topic of the thread is "Lowering the barrier for newbies". the first line of my post :
Staying to the original topic: My [em]suggestions:[/em]

In simpler terms these were my suggestions, neither did I say or feel or for that matter even possible that the default config pleases everyone.

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Postby Nick Fortune » Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:34 pm

Hi chesss, thank for taking an interest.
chesss wrote:alt+tab -: Installed fvwm, reading fvwm beginner guide in my browser, starts fvwm, looks around, presses alt+Tab to go back to brower for furthur rea.. Uh no alt+tab???

IIRC, part of the problem is that several of the distros customise the ConfigFvwmDefaults file which handles a lot of the default behavior. No reason why they shouldn't really - it's no different that Ubuntu setting its own wallpaper and themes for Gnome, but it does lead to confusion. For instance on Gentoo, if you start FVWM for the first time you get a basic horrible grey x11 mesh and it looks like the WM is broken (which is how I came to raise this subject). On the other hand some distros (I belive) add a basic backdrop. This made it quite hard to explain the problem on occasion, since people tend to assume that their distro does it the "proper" way.

Now on Gnetoo, alt-tab Just Works. On the other hand, when we started tweaking the tarball from fvwm.org alt-tab didn't work for me until I pestered Thomas about it, so maybe it's one of taviso's tweaks to the gentoo ebuild - or maybe someone at Ubuntu doesn't like alt-tab. The way to know for sure is to look in ConfigFvwmDefaults from the current tarball.

As for click to raise (alt-tab too, really) - you should bear in mind that we're not FVWM devs as such. Thomas and I were working on a new desktop so we could submit it to the regulars of the fvwm-workers list and see if they thought it worth including. So if you're saying that the current out of the box behaviour needs to change, then sympathetic as I am, you're probably saying it in the wrong place.

So I suppose if you want to get some changes made, you could petition the Ubuntu devs; or you could subscribe to fvwm-workers. Or, if you like, you could help get the replacement desktop project up and running again. It's something I'd still like to see happen.

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Postby thomasadam » Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:34 pm

Nick Fortune wrote:IIRC, part of the problem is that several of the distros customise the ConfigFvwmDefaults file which handles a lot of the default behavior.


They can't do that, since it would break with how FvwmForm-Setup handles things. Since it's an undocumented feature that FVWM reads this file before it processes any of its own startup files, it should be left alone. I have never encountered a distribution which has any need to modify this file -- it's somewhat pointless.

Nick Fortune wrote: No reason why they shouldn't really - it's no different that Ubuntu setting its own wallpaper and themes for Gnome, but it does lead to confusion. For instance on Gentoo, if you start FVWM for the first time you get a basic horrible grey x11 mesh and it looks like the WM is broken (which is how I came to raise this subject).


That grey mesh as you call it ;) is as a result of there being no wallpaper set. Now, I have known a lot of distros in the past to use things like xloadimage(1) and xsetroot(1) in X11's global startup directorty in /etc/X11 to do things (RH and SuSE were infamous in this way) -- but again, ConfigFvwmDefaults was never touched.

Nick Fortune wrote:Now on Gnetoo, alt-tab Just Works. On the other hand, when we started tweaking the tarball from fvwm.org alt-tab didn't work for me until I pestered Thomas about it, so maybe it's one of taviso's tweaks to the gentoo ebuild - or maybe someone at Ubuntu doesn't like alt-tab. The way to know for sure is to look in ConfigFvwmDefaults from the current tarball.


Nope -- there's nothing special about that. You'll have to remind me what it was I was pesterd over (;)) but I suspect you were bitten by the NumLock bug.


Nick Fortune wrote:So I suppose if you want to get some changes made, you could petition the Ubuntu devs; or you could subscribe to fvwm-workers. Or, if you like, you could help get the replacement desktop project up and running again. It's something I'd still like to see happen.


Indeed -- there's many things about it which lay unfinished.

-- Thomas Adam

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Postby Nick Fortune » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:03 pm

thomasadam wrote:
Nick Fortune wrote:IIRC, part of the problem is that several of the distros customise the ConfigFvwmDefaults file which handles a lot of the default behavior.


They can't do that, since it would break with how FvwmForm-Setup handles things. Since it's an undocumented feature that FVWM reads this file before it processes any of its own startup files, it should be left alone. I have never encountered a distribution which has any need to modify this file -- it's somewhat pointless.


OK, I did some digging here. Gentoo uses the vanilla ConfigFvwmDefaults file. So does Edgy Eft Ubuntu. But Dapper Drake didn't. That's not just because Dapper is a couple of releases behind either, because I compated it against 2.5.14 vanilla, just to make sure.

So, if chesss is running breezy, then that would explain the lack of out-of-the box Alt-Tab behaviour

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Postby thomasadam » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:05 pm

Nick Fortune wrote:So, if chesss is running breezy, then that would explain the lack of out-of-the box Alt-Tab behaviour


I recommend you report that as a bug to the maintainer of that package. There's no need to change that file to achieve that -- in fact, such a decision should be left to the user. It is, afterall, easier to turn a feature off than it is on. Especially in this instance.

-- Thomas Adam

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Re: Lowering the barrier to entry for FVWM newcomers

Postby Dominique » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:29 pm

To start from the beginning, I think that documentation is the most important think to take in account for a newcomer. It must be pointers on the wiki, on the forum and on some introduction pages. But most important like the man pages are the definitive references, the man pages must be as easier as possible to understand.

For that, I think that it would be better if the different options in a man page was sorted by categories and not in plain alphabetic order as it is often the case now. I begun to copy and past parts of some man pages in an editor in order to speed the searching of the wanted options. The problem is that it is so many options that it take time just to understand which option make what. If they was sorted by categories, it would be faster both to find them and to figure out how they are related with each other.

Another thing that can be very helpful for newcomers is some kind of configuration like in SuSE. I was trying plain fvwm yesterday on a SuSE 10 system (I am most a fvwm-crystal user), and Thomas (if I remember well) did really a great job in order to integrate fvwm into this distribution.
FVWM-Crystal is an easy to use, eye-candy but also powerful desktop environment based on FVWM.

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Re: Lowering the barrier to entry for FVWM newcomers

Postby thomasadam » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:50 pm

You have a knack of bringing up old threads.

Dominique wrote:To start from the beginning, I think that documentation is the most important think to take in account for a newcomer. It must be pointers on the wiki, on the forum and on some introduction pages. But most important like the man pages are the definitive references, the man pages must be as easier as possible to understand.


Well, yes. The manpage is, seeing as the documentation for it has now been split up for HTML browsing for instance, whilst still retaining the monolithic manpage:

http://fvwm.org/doc/unstable/index.html

[...]


Dominique wrote:Another thing that can be very helpful for newcomers is some kind of configuration like in SuSE. I was trying plain fvwm yesterday on a SuSE 10 system (I am most a fvwm-crystal user), and Thomas (if I remember well) did really a great job in order to integrate fvwm into this distribution.


I didn't integrate FVWM into SuSE, I updated its archaic fvwm2rc file to something which resembled what the *then* current version of FVWM was. I will need to update it further in lieu of recent changes made to released unstable versions of FVWM.

Before you sent this post, did you by any chance read all of the threads therein? Nick and I went to a lot of effort to try and improve things, and still might. But the main goal of this was to improve what FVWM ships with as a default, and not documentation. Documentation is completely separate to this particular goal.

Aside from my random hackings I occasionally do on FVWM, I have always tried where appropriate to address FVWM documentation rather than join the growing fandom of creating shiny new fvwm configs. Whilst that's often useful and inspirational for newcomers, unless the config actually tells people what each line is doing, it's often useless -- shotgun learning like that is idiotic and not very extensible.

The FvwmWiki hasn't died, but it has received no further help other than me for a very long time now, despite my various attempts both on here and IRC to request it. Occasionally I might get one or two people who contribute there, and in the past it used to be more, but seemingly not. A real shame, since it had it all mapped out too. I still spend about three hours a day cleaning up spam there, but it's a lost cause unless other people besides myself are even interested in the FvwmWiki as a viable and useful resource. I can't motivate myself to maintain something no one is ever going to look at.

There is *sporadic* documentation about FVWM all over the place. The last spree of this can be found on the gentoo-wiki of all places (via Mimosinnet -- a user who was most ambitious):

http://www.gentoo-wiki.com/FVWM_Advanced

Taking various resources to compile it:

http://www.mail-archive.com/fvwm-worker ... 15571.html
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-524840.html

It's also a lot harder than you think to do. To work out just what might be useful. It's also very time-consuming. We have the beginners' guide which is about right, although it is quite out-dated and needs improving. Appaerntly, Jaimos (the author) is getting round to this little-by-little, but I don't even now what/how he plans to do this.

I had every plan to write a book on FVWM along with Taviso, but for whatever reason I think that's stalled; I hope not fallen through entirely since it is something I am still very interested in doing given the chance.

What *I* would like to see, personally, is a distillation of all the posts found on these forums. I don't wish to be conceited, but a lot of my posts here have sufficient detail in them to be turned into nice articles, if they were embellished with diagrams and such. That would be a good starting point actually, to start a thread on these forums with links to specific threads/posts where the information contained in them could be distilled somewhere as a reference point.

How's that sound, Dominique? Sound like something you're up to trying to do? It would mean trawling through these forums looking at a lot of old posts. You've volunteered yourself, you realise, don't you? You can't make a statement such as "X needs improving" without stepping up to the bar. :P One thing I have learnt through experience is I sure as hell won't be doing this on my own. I'll help you with this, of course. Providing there's sufficient interest, but it's rather chicken and egg; in order to gain that interest, you have to first provide something for people to look at.

Bon courage, mon ami.

-- Thomas Adam

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Re: Lowering the barrier to entry for FVWM newcomers

Postby Nick Fortune » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:10 am

Dominique wrote:To start from the beginning, I think that documentation is the most important think to take in account for a newcomer. It must be pointers on the wiki, on the forum and on some introduction pages. But most important like the man pages are the definitive references, the man pages must be as easier as possible to understand.

Well... as Thomas points out, this is an old thread. Three or four years ago, a freshly installed FVWM desktop was, on most systems, visually indistinguishable from a broken window manager. That was my first time experience, and all I did was to Alt+Ctl+F1 back to the console, kill it, and reload Afterstep. I'm sure many others must have done likewise.

So that was the starting point, really. Not "let's make this easier to learn" so much as "let's at least make sure the user knows the desktop is working". It's been a while since I installed FVWM from scratch, and I don't know if the problem still exists. But for any user interface, it can't be a bad thing to start by saying "Hi, the program is working, go here for further instructions" on the first invocation.

As for the documentation... I don't think there's a problem in that regard. Or rather, I don't think there's a solvable problem. The documentation for any work of software should cover all the features, and the software is necessarily as complex as the problem domain. In the case of FVWM, the problem domain is essentially how to write a script language that lets user build full featured desktop environments without needing to learn C and C++ and to understand the intricacies of X11 the protocols. This implies a vast area of complexity that FVWM has to address, which means a vast feature set and documentation to match. The only way to significantly simplify the documentation is to reduce the feature set - which isn't really what FVWM is about, IMHO.

On the other hand, the FVWM world can always use some more good beginners tutorials. But I don't personally believe it's the role of the manual page to server as a tutorial.

[edited for clarity]

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Re: Lowering the barrier to entry for FVWM newcomers

Postby Dominique » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:07 pm

thomasadam wrote:The FvwmWiki hasn't died, but it has received no further help other than me for a very long time now, despite my various attempts both on here and IRC to request it. Occasionally I might get one or two people who contribute there, and in the past it used to be more, but seemingly not. A real shame, since it had it all mapped out too. I still spend about three hours a day cleaning up spam there, but it's a lost cause unless other people besides myself are even interested in the FvwmWiki as a viable and useful resource. I can't motivate myself to maintain something no one is ever going to look at.

Ouch ! I would just freeze it if I was the man in charge.

It's also a lot harder than you think to do. To work out just what might be useful.

Yes, I guess so. It is also very personal. What an user can need will depend not only of its computer skills and background, but also of its way of thinking.

What *I* would like to see, personally, is a distillation of all the posts found on these forums. I don't wish to be conceited, but a lot of my posts here have sufficient detail in them to be turned into nice articles, if they were embellished with diagrams and such. That would be a good starting point actually, to start a thread on these forums with links to specific threads/posts where the information contained in them could be distilled somewhere as a reference point.

How's that sound, Dominique? Sound like something you're up to trying to do? It would mean trawling through these forums looking at a lot of old posts. You've volunteered yourself, you realise, don't you? You can't make a statement such as "X needs improving" without stepping up to the bar. :P

You are a smart guy. I will remember that and reuse it !

One thing I have learnt through experience is I sure as hell won't be doing this on my own. I'll help you with this, of course. Providing there's sufficient interest, but it's rather chicken and egg; in order to gain that interest, you have to first provide something for people to look at.

Bon courage, mon ami.

-- Thomas Adam

Thomas, I was thinking about your proposition. It is a few things I must take in account. I am already AlsaPlayer's administrator and this project is my number 1 priority (It is quite calm for now, but I know by experience that it can take more that my whole spare time from time to time.). I am also in the way to become administrator for Fvwm-Crystal, this will be my number 2 priority.

And more. I want to learn the C/C++. My only real computer science background is a few Basic programs on my hand calculator and some good basis onto realtime assembler programs for DSP. I begun to make some home work. and just realized how time consuming it would be to learn enough in order to be able to realize what I want to do. (Adapt a realtime note recognition software I wrote for a DSP to Linux, JACK and MIDI. Computers have enough power to do that now.)
For now, I don't know exactly what is my priority for this because I am quite disappointed about how long time it will take in order to be able to begin with real hacking. All I know is that I want to do that, and as soon that I will overcome this disappointment, this will become my number one priority.

So, well. All I can say is that I can volunteer to begin this archaeological and distillation work. But I cannot give any guaranty about what I will archive and how long it will take. This will be my number 3 priority. At that time of writing, that mean that this will be my number 2 priority because AP is quite calm. It can even become my number one in a few weeks or so. But the priority can change at any time, especially in regards with AP. It some programmer begin to send patches for the AP like it was already the case before, I will be very busy with test, report and release work for this project.
FVWM-Crystal is an easy to use, eye-candy but also powerful desktop environment based on FVWM.

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Re: Lowering the barrier to entry for FVWM newcomers

Postby thomasadam » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:14 pm

Dominique wrote:I am also in the way to become administrator for Fvwm-Crystal, this will be my number 2 priority.


Interesting to note if you'll pick up the patches I sent in where Harnir has not.

Dominique wrote:For now, I don't know exactly what is my priority for this because I am quite disappointed about how long time it will take in order to be able to begin with real hacking. All I know is that I want to do that, and as soon that I will overcome this disappointment, this will become my number one priority.


I wouldn't start with FVWM then. It's complex just because of xlib.

It's fine you're not giving this your top priority, but some movement would be nice at some point, if only to motivate myself.

-- Thomas Adam


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